Introducing Agile Change? How To Do It and What To Look Out For with Dr Jen Frahm

The word ‘agile’ is popping up everywhere these days and agile ways of working are becoming increasingly sought after across all industries, including change leadership.

I’m thrilled to be delving into the exciting world of Agile Change and leadership with renowned expert, Dr. Jen Frahm. Jen is a global authority on organisational change, communication, and transformation, with a diverse background that spans across a wide variety of industries and 28 different countries.

As a sought after speaker and author of two impactful books, Change Leader: The Changes You Need to Make First and Conversations of Change: A Guide to Workplace Change, Jen is known for being at the frontier of business agility and change. If Agile change has been a topic you’ve been interested in exploring in your change initiatives, you definitely don’t want to miss this conversation.

Agile change is a methodology that emphasises delivering change quickly with limited resources while ensuring the well-being of those affected. It requires change leaders to adapt their tools and processes to work efficiently within short timelines, making it a challenging yet rewarding approach. In this conversation, Jen and I discuss some of the reasons behind the growing interest in agile ways of working and the unrealistic expectations organisations may have regarding cost savings and the level of commitment required.

One of the critical challenges in Agile change is introducing agile principles into change management practices. Jen emphasises that this shift often starts as a top-down, planned change and leadership teams must embrace the Agile mindset before expecting their teams to follow suit. We discuss how a two-speed change strategy, combining top-down planning with organic transformation, seems to be the most effective approach.

Leadership plays a pivotal role in Agile change, yet many leaders struggle with new concepts such as community engagement, collaborative leadership, and communication. Jen highlights the importance of nurturing these aspects to create a culture of agility, underscoring the need for transparency in decision-making, especially during experiments, to reassure leaders and build trust.

I know you’re going to get so much out of this conversation as Jen shares a fresh perspective on how organisations can embrace agility in their change management practices. Enjoy!

Take a listen now and get ready to discover what working in more agile ways means day-to-day for change leaders.

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Kate: I bet like me, you're hearing the word agile come up more and more all over the place every day. It seems like leaders want it, projects are doing it, and increasingly at work, we all need to be it. More agile. While it was just originally the domain of IT projects, agile ways of working are really having a moment right now across all kinds of industries, and of course that includes agile change and change leadership.

[00:01:36] I think we should talk about it. And that's why I am thrilled to be connecting with Dr. Jen Frahm on the show today. Jen is a global expert on organisational change, communication, and transformation. She is a sought after speaker, and she's known for being at the frontier of business agility and change.

[00:01:54] She is the co-founder of the Agile Change Leadership Institute and the author of two books. Change leader, the changes you need to make first and conversations of change, a guide to workplace change. And she's also the co-author of the Agile Change Playbook. She has designed and delivered change across multiple industries and professions, from wine sales to wedding dresses, Vet products to energy retailers, nuns and engineers, big banks to small IT companies and across 28 countries. What a great conversation you're about to listen in on. To make sure that we're all on the same page, we kicked things off with a 101. Exactly what is Agile? Both in terms of the big A Agile and little a agile, but then we really get into the goods.

[00:02:48] In this episode, Jen and I explore Why Agile ways of working are becoming more desirable in our organisations, how to introduce Agile principles and practices into your enterprise change management approach, because of course that in itself probably represents a really big change. What it's going to take to really get the benefits of Agile change, how to help senior leaders feel safe through Agile implementations.

[00:03:14] This was a big one. I loved that insight. And Jen's advice for folks looking to build their confidence in agile change. Jen's insights really made me stop and think about working in more agile ways and what that means day to day for change management in real life. I know that you're going to get so much value out of this conversation too.

[00:03:35] Here we go. My conversation with Dr. Jen Fram.

[00:03:38] Jen. Hello. I'm very excited that you are joining me on the show today. Thanks for being here.

[00:03:44] Jen: Absolute pleasure, as am I. I have been really, really looking forward to this chat, Kate.

[00:03:49] Kate: Yay. Me too. Now, listen, wanted to get the dirt straight away. I am betting that in your career, you have seen it all. And I'm wondering what is like the hairiest, most challenging, weirdest, strangest, situation that you faced in change. And. What happened?

[00:04:08] Jen: Gosh, now there is a tricky question.

[00:04:13] Kate: Is that because there are so many hairy, weird, uncomfortable

[00:04:17] Jen: I think sometimes my lens on what is weird, hairy and uncomfortable is very different to other people, right? So it's actually very difficult to surprise me with what I see happen around there. It's, it's like, Oh yeah, okay. And because I think this is also exemplified in every time you go into a new client space, they want to tell you how special they are and how unique they are.

[00:04:42] But at the end of the day, it's a very common story. Like it's actually not special or unique. I've seen this multiple times. I think, you know, in terms of some of the really unusual places that I've done change, I'd say doing change with cemetery workers is probably one of the ones that has been the most fulfilling client work to do.

[00:05:08] Kate: Yeah, that's cool.

[00:05:09] Jen: really unique, you know, when, when you're thinking about the change impacts on people who dig graves or those kinds of how, how do they work, but also what does it mean to execute change in an environment where there are people grieving around you in the cemeteries, you know, is really quite novel.

[00:05:28] But I tell you what, I think it's really hard to ever find a workforce that is as special and compassionate and caring as the people who work in the cemetery sector. They are extraordinary. So, you know, that's, that's pretty special. But, you know, doing a walk around the job site in a cemetery is kind of unique for the work we do.

[00:05:49] And I used to have a bit of a giggle because I've also done work with midwives

[00:05:53] Kate: The beginning and the end

[00:05:54] Jen: cradle to grave.

[00:05:57] Kate: That really epitomises end to end change management.

[00:06:04] Jen: Absolutely. And I've also done work with nuns and look when the most powerful stakeholder on your stakeholder grid is the Pope, That's an interesting conversation to have. Who can stop this change? Well, it's the Pope. And I'm like, okay guessing that we don't get much interaction there, but so you're right.

[00:06:21] I think, I don't know that there's weird or wacky so much as some really fascinating people. And I think it's part of my love for this work, Kate, is You really get to experience different lives and learn so much about different industries. I think I've always prided myself on being industry agnostic. So I don't focus on a particular industry. And for that, I am so grateful because the learning continues every day you go into a new space. So yeah.

[00:06:49] Kate: change through people grieving, considering that, that is a very, special and by special, I mean, something to honour and treat with care. yeah, the environment's fascinating, well, look, I'm so happy that you're here because.

[00:07:07] I would love to dive into the world of agile change with you these days, at least once a week. Honestly, it's more than once a week. I hear I'm talking to a change manager or a change leader or someone in a leadership role on a client site. And I hear. We're introducing Agile or they want to introduce Agile or, you know, they're thinking about doing that or they're planning on starting that next month and any time I talk about this topic with people of Agile and Agile change on the podcast, we get lots of interest from folks that are listening in about it.

[00:07:45] So that's why I'd love to dive into this. I think it's something really interesting. and evolving right now. So what does agile change mean to you? I'm interested in agile with a big A, agile with a tiny A. Tell me, what does it mean to you?

[00:08:02] Jen: for me, Agile change is really about how do we deliver change at speed with fewer resources and mitigate the risk to the people receiving that change, but also accelerate the benefits of agility. And sometimes that can be intention, right? Those two factors can be really intention. So if we unpack that a little bit.

[00:08:30] We're talking about delivery at speed. So if we're talking Big A Agile, so, working with development teams software releases, product releases, any of those kind of outcomes, it's not unusual as a change practitioner to be given a 2 6 week runway to when the change is being released.

[00:08:52] And so, as a change practitioner, you really need to get comfortable at what of my tools do I throw away? And what is the minimum viable change process for this experience, right? And so, people often ask me, can, can you get into agile change as someone really new to change management? I actually think it's more difficult, Kate, because you need to know what your full tool set is, to know what to drop.

[00:09:17] But then maybe I'm wrong. Maybe beginner's mindset actually advantages you in that space. So, so that, that's the first piece is that you're delivering at speed. There is inevitably reduced resources. So if I think about 10 years ago, I was delivering enterprise NPS with one of the banks had a million dollar budget for recruiting.

[00:09:39] could get at that stage. 8 to 12 practitioners and that was part of the ramping up was, you know, a really big team. These days when I go into an organisation from a delivery focus, and I'm not doing so much of that at the moment you're lucky if you've got one person, right? So at an organisational level, one person is expected, and this is most of our people that come through the courses, you know, they're the only person.

[00:10:05] And so there's that real challenge of, am I doing the right thing? Is this the right thing now? potential to feel isolated. So I think the leaner resources beyond the, the workload stress comes with its own challenge of confidence. You know, am I doing the right thing? Because I don't have people to bounce off from a practitioner level.

[00:10:26] Kate: Oh, good. I was going to ask, why do you think Agile is something that is becoming kind of, of increasing interest to change leaders and leaders inside organisations? And you've mentioned resourcing then the subsequent workload aspects. Are there other reasons why, Agile is becoming so interesting for people right now?

[00:10:47] Jen: I think there's kind of three part answer on that. The unfortunate reason why it's becoming popular is it's a term we called institutional isomorphism. And what it means is me too. So, ANs's going agile, we're going to go agile as well. So it's me too ism at an organisational level. That's not probably a really good argument for going agile, but it's probably the dominant one in our industries at the moment.

[00:11:13] The one that makes sense is does agility support your strategy? And if your strategy is about responding to market pressures responding to external forces at speed from a competitiveness perspective, then agility really matters. But that's probably the only reason why I would argue an organisation should go agile, is if speed matters in delivery.

[00:11:39] There's also, you know, this element of if we do go agile, we can do reduce resources. We can, so, so there's kind of a fallacy around or a seduction around, we can save money if we do agile or we have agility in an organisation. And I'm not actually sure that's always the case.

[00:12:00] Kate: I was gonna say, is that the case from what you've observed?

[00:12:04] Jen: It's not. for the majority, for the mainstream, it's not, it's because the majority don't actually have the temperament or the courage or the commitment to doing what you need to do to really be agile. So the majority want the gloss of the rituals and the ceremonies and the we're going agile, but not actually committing to the mindset behind it, which is scary, right?

[00:12:30] It's being comfortable with failure. It's you know, honoring those who actually don't have power. It's flattening the organisations. All of these are really scary things for leaders to face into. So to have a safe version of Agile, and that's not to confuse it with safe as the

[00:12:47] Agile approach. But to have a safe version of Agile is actually very difficult to do unless you have full commitment from leaders who are comfortable with risk.

[00:12:57] So when you get leadership teams who are really prepared to get into the mindset that supports agility, that's when you'll see the benefits. But when they're dipping their toe in or half committed to oh, yes, we'll do stand ups and we'll do PI planning days and we'll do all these kind of things, but not actually, you know, we, we still want to see a concrete date for when things are being delivered and reporting, they're not going to get the benefits

[00:13:23] Kate: Yeah. This is very interesting. Some of the things you've said match the observations that I have where I have observed on a number of different client sites that we're going agile. We're going agile. We do things agile. We do things agile. But if the shit hits the fan, there's a comfort sone in going back to the traditional, I'm using air quotes around my word traditional there if you're listening to this, traditional change management approaches where Things should be more documented. that kind of thing. Is that something that you are observing as well?

[00:13:55] Jen: It is. I think there's a real tension and it's one of the weaknesses of the Agile community in that they seem to really struggle with being able to respond to make me feel safe. So I think it is a legitimate concern of leaders. If you're asking them to either move into Big A, Agile or Small A, just be more open.

[00:14:20] You know, agility if you're asking them to do things in a different way, they will have a legitimate and valid and logical concern about, is this the right thing to do? It feels really uncomfortable. I don't feel safe. Now if as an agilist, you can't have a conversation around, well, here's what safety looks like, you know, fast feedback cycles of data.

[00:14:44] And you've got the opportunity to nix it at this point, right? So you remain in control, but you've got to let us do the experiment and the test and learns and the things like that to get the data to you. That's where safety lies. That's what control looks like in, in agile, but I see that there's a real struggle in having that conversation that reassures leaders, they kind of get a little bit dismissive.

[00:15:07] Kate: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I love that tip emphasising the transparency of the process and The points for ongoing decision making and go no go's along the way are still present, but it's probably really important to emphasise that when you're having conversations around Agile with leaders.

[00:15:24] I agree. when things feel really uncomfortable or scary, or what is my boss, I'm feeling pressure from my boss. And their boss up the line to report or whatever it might be. Yeah, safety is valid.

[00:15:41] Jen: And with that Kate, I think there's a real power in expectation management. and this is the transparency piece, you know, part of your conversations with leaders needs to be We're going to play with the concept, you know, I want your permission to just relax a bit and Let's play with this idea and see how far it takes us when I'm running experiment canvases with leaders There is a real clear section on it, which is What are the things that would require you to abandon or abort this experiment? And so getting them to voice their worst case fears Gives everybody a boundary to work to.

[00:16:20] Kate: yeah, their tolerances.

[00:16:21] Jen: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:16:22] Kate: Yeah. Great. That's such a great tip. And thank you for really grounding it in the practical there for people. Because I see a lot of this, we're moving to agile. They're moving to agile next month. Actually moving to an agile environment. Is quite a big change in itself for a lot of the clients or the organisations that I see that would genuinely do it, or even to move along the pathway to more agile and more agility is a significant transformation in itself. And so I'm really curious. what, like what's a good way to start introducing agile into organisations.

[00:17:01] Jen: Yeah,

[00:17:01] Kate: Is there a better way to do that?

[00:17:04] Jen: I think again, this is a really contested space doesn't, that often those people who consult in the space of Agile don't want to acknowledge. Going Agile is one of the hardest organisational changes you will ever go because it changes , the systems of power.

[00:17:19] There's structural change involved in it. There is considerable cultural change. So, you know, in terms of the, the size of the change, it's massive and it comes with risk, a lot of risk. That's the whole point is that we are testing and learning as we go. A lot of those that work in the agile space are really reluctant to recognise that as part of a large scale organisational change, we actually need to start this as a plan change and as top down.

[00:17:54] Because you can do all of the organic change that you want, the pilots, the groundswell virality of, of Agile in the world, but it's going to be blocked at the leadership team. So, we think about this as kind of a two speed change strategy, we're starting with top down planned change until such point we have a critical mass or a tipping point.

[00:18:21] That we can then start to roll into more of an agile way of transformation. you know, it's an unpalatable message to a lot of people because it's not agile. If you're doing top down plan change, that's very linear. And I'm like, it absolutely is linear until you get momentum. That's when you can then look at, the amplification of what's working, what's not. Dialing this up, dialing this down.

[00:18:47] Kate: Then once we reach that tipping point and the organisation is Agile is there an ongoing space or place for more linear, more traditional change management? Or is that not needed anymore?

[00:19:07] Jen: I think that's a luxury. So is it needed or is it afforded? there's an interesting way to look at that around the boundaries of time. So if you think about you're doing platform development in an organisation, and you know that it's going to take two to three years, to actually get this platform up, then you've probably got capacity to do more traditional forms of change management because it's moving much slower. Things are not changing so frequently that you need to deploy a different so I think you can do that with certain types of change. However, Here's the thing. When you actually get comfortable with letting go and working agile, particularly from a change perspective, why would you want to do that?

[00:19:53] Seriously, why would you want to write a 40 page change strategy document that nobody's gonna read again and do a training needs analysis at a certain point in time, which in 12 months time, you've got a completely different demographic in your workplace and different tools to be training with. It just doesn't make sense.

[00:20:11] So, I think one of the benefits in doing change from an agile perspective is in combination with you letting go of your traditional ways of doing things, you're also seeing an empowerment of the workforce. So there's kind of this transference of How do we do change to people who are not change practitioners?

[00:20:35] And anytime you've got a transparency of competency around change, you've got a better workplace, right? People feel more confident because their self efficacy is higher. They can help themselves rather than feeling dependent on other people. So I think there's some really big benefits that come with making a more agile form of change management your default Rather than the exception.

[00:20:59] Kate: Yes. I strongly agree with what you just said about introducing more change capability with people that are not expert change managers and the, the huge benefits of that to organisations. So, I'm so curious, are there some kind of common. Themes in the challenges that you see leaders facing when they're making this move into Agile.

[00:21:26] Jen: Yes, and sometimes these surprise me, Kate. So we, we recently launched a diagnostic on agile change leadership. So you can score yourself on the strengths of your agile change leadership. And what I was really surprised about is the area that is the lowest for leaders is what we call the three C's. So that is about the engagement of community, collaborative leadership, and communication.

[00:21:54] And I thought we'd got to a point where those probably would have been relatively well-anchored in most leadership practices. And yet they're not. maybe it's the more contemporary version of what we're talking about. So leaders still think about communication as the top down communicate the change.

[00:22:14] Rather than how, as a leader, do I harness conversations and dialogue to come up with better change. You know, how do I activate communities, look at how do we sustain the change and keep it alive in community, as opposed to who's going to be accountable for this change after we go live. You know, those kind of things.

[00:22:35] The inherent vulnerability and risk taking in collaboration seems to still be a struggle. Um, Um, So when I saw that data coming through, I was really curious about it. But then when I started cross checking it across people that I've worked with, I was like, actually, this is spot on.

[00:22:49] Kate: that's so interesting. I haven't shared this on the podcast yet, but I have been doing a research project as well. And our initial data is showing the same, the same thing, Jen, the same thing. Yes. Of that in terms of. Leadership, when we ask, you know, what skills need to be improved in yourself, to help with this kind of stuff, the themes are hugely around communication, community building and collaboration.

[00:23:22] Jen: Wow, that's so good to hear

[00:23:24] Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so please know I'm a data point supporting your research.

[00:23:30] Jen: Oh God, have we got bad questions in there? Like, are the questions framed the wrong way? Like

[00:23:34] Kate: My God, I thought the same thing. I was I was like haven't we covered this? But there are new ways because exactly what you said, what does it mean to amplify communication in a really meaningful kind of way? I think that's what I'm taking out of it. Anyway, we could have a much, much bigger conversation, but,

[00:23:52] Jen: yeah, I mean, this is probably where we've got this common nexus is, you know, the background in communication and we both know that change is born out of communication, right? This isn't a mechanism for communicate the change. communication is inherently the place where change is born.

[00:24:10] Kate: yes. It is the problem and the solution.

[00:24:14] Jen: Yes. Yes.

[00:24:15] Kate: It's like leadership is the problem and the solution in this space. absolutely, now I wanted to ask you with so much interest in agile and agile change, what can. Professionals who are looking to build their confidence in this space. Cause you mentioned before safety, there is vulnerability.

[00:24:35] We're moving to these very new ways of working. What are some things that professionals can build their confidence? How can they build their confidence in this idea of agile change or working in more agile ways?

[00:24:50] Jen: Yeah, look there's a heap of formal ways of doing that, right? Training courses and, know, acknowledging conflict of interest there. Got a few. There are also books, but the safe way to do it, the cheap way to do it, the budget friendly, as you're trying to work it out, is actually to start going to meetups and meeting other people who are doing them.

[00:25:11] Agility, working in, in agile environments, it's through those conversations that you start to your anxiety around what I'm doing and what other people are doing to go, yeah, I do know what I'm doing. They're doing it over there. They're finding the same problem. We've just had the same conversation.

[00:25:27] We were both sitting there going, Oh God, what have we done with designed our diagnostic wrong? But through conversation, we've gone, actually, we both knew what we were doing. But this is what happens at meetups and I, I can't, whether they are virtual, whether they are in real life I think if you just start connecting with people who are sharing these meetups and communities that's the best place to start building confidence.

[00:25:51] You'll then get a sense of, okay, if I want to do some formal development in these areas, if I want to skill up where do I get this training from? What, what books should I be reading? All that kind of stuff.

[00:26:01] Kate: Yeah. That's a great tip. Community. Find your community. Connect with your community. Wonderful. Oh, now I feel like I could keep chatting all day and I'm going to keep talking to you about our research and I'm so interested to see. But for now, let me know how can people who want to keep the conversation going, how can they get in contact with you?

[00:26:22] Jen: Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find online but LinkedIn is probably the primary social space I play in these days. I think, you know, X slash Twitter has kind of diminished for me. Instagram is where I share probably more of the personal gen than the professional gen. But LinkedIn is kind of where my work life is. Or at the Agile Change Leadership Institute, so aclinstitute.com

[00:26:46] Kate: we're going to link to everything so that You are super easy to find and I, I hope that people do. Thank you so much. This has been a fascinating conversation

[00:26:55] Jen: Pleasure.

[00:26:55] Kate: I can't wait for us to keep talking.

[00:26:57] Jen: Super. Thanks so much, Kate.

LINKS

CONNECT WITH JEN FRAHM:

Websites:

LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/jenniferfrahm

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jenfrahm

Books:

CONNECT WITH KATE:

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